Tags
I was checking out a commenter’s blog, as I usually do, when I came across a post called “A Respectful Breast-Man”. (Snipped version with comments here, full version without comments here). It’s writer Thomas’ meditations on staring at women’s breasts. In the course of the post, he asks ‘I was wondering what women thought about this. What’s it like for them growing up with this, and do they have an appreciation for the male perspective (so to speak)?’ Here’s the answer I gave him.
I’m a woman with two of those! Perhaps I can answer.
The short answer is, it’s not at all pleasant.
Imagine being a girl, maybe about twelve. One day, these things start growing on your chest. You’re pretty happy, because that’s what TV and the magazines and your peers tell you to want, right? The bigger the better. (Or maybe you’re uncomfortable, because you don’t want all your school friends to make fun of you if they get too big, and anyway, you’ve got a 16-year-old sister. You see how all those boys and men see her. They almost let the saliva drip down her shirt. How can she let them do that to her? (Oh, sweetheart, you do not yet know.))
So, your developing sexuality is getting interfered with because all these weird men, much older than you, are suddenly seeing you as sexually available. And now it’s boys your age, too. At school, on the bus, the kid across the street. Because those older men, the media, the whole of patriarchal society is whispering to those boys that women are not as good, not like us, and you can stare at their breasts all you like. But you’re just trying to head to the movies with your friends, or pick up some bread and milk. Just going about your life. It doesn’t make much of a difference if you cover up, because they’re still there, like flashing lights drawing people to your chest. You begin to feel a bit dehumanised.
Later, you’ve grown up a bit. You’re at a party in high school, and it’s all very exciting. There’s this guy you kind of like. So eventually your paths collide and you say, ‘hi, how’re you?’ And he glances briefly at your face, then his eyes are drawn, seemingly inexorably, to your breasts. Well, at least he thinks I’m hot, you think. And you try asking him about a mutual friend, and a class you share, but he’s giving you monosyllabic answers. And at first you think, all right, teenage hormones. It’s just biology. But surely this dude could tear his eyes away… but no. Eventually you scurry off, humiliated. But shouldn’t you like the attention? And what did you expect for going out in public, especially in a low-cut top? You come to realize: no matter what you wear, or how you behave – all the things we’re told good girls can do to protect themselves – some dude will always think it’s okay. And it’s not just biology, you can’t separate that from social conditioning. (And over the years, you see guys justifying their behaviour as a biological imperative, but you know it’s just an excuse. They could stop if they wanted to. But they don’t respect you enough to stop.)
And in your twenties, you’re in a meeting. You’ve got some financial matters to discuss, but you’re not getting far because the man you need to help you is instead trying to get an angle down your shirt. So are you going to object and make this hard for yourself? Or do you let yourself be this man’s sex object for a while in the hopes of getting a successful outcome for your meeting? Another day. Another chip off your pride and self-esteem and sense of personhood.
And in your thirties, you have a kid. You decide to breastfeed. You get a bunch of new men who like to look at your breasts, sometimes a little slack-jawed, because they’ve gotten bigger with milk. You just can’t win. Sometimes, when your baby starts crying and your breasts are just aching with all the milk, you’ve got to feed your baby right then and there. So you sit and take your breast out and your baby latches on. But now – ewwwwww. People tell you that’s disgusting. You’re not a cow, you’re a woman. Can’t you hide that under a blanket? Because people are startled to see a breast fulfill its biological function. People are used to thinking of breasts as sexy. But yours work hard to feed your baby, and you’re proud of them, and why can’t people just shut up and let you feed your kid? At least everyone is turning away from your breasts, for once.
And in your forties, the kid has been weaned, and now your breasts are saggy. The world is bombarding you with the message that your saggy breasts are disgusting. Kind of an object of fascination. But that doesn’t stop men, men, yet more men, trying to look down your shirt.
You can never win. And the years go on…
All these men, ogling your poor breasts over the years. They just sort of glaze over while looking at your breasts. It’s clear that if they were thinking about you as a person in that moment, just like them, with regular wants and worries, they would not look at your breasts like that. You grow intimately acquainted with their perspective. These guys think that staring at your breasts is their due. They’re nice guys, they think to themselves, where’s the harm in looking? Someone who thinks that? Is not a nice guy.
In this scenario, I’ve given you the life of a white, heterosexual, middle-class, able, thin, cis woman. You probably didn’t pick up on most of those things, but you may if you go back and have another read. (Nobody was saying that you, as a disabled woman, shouldn’t have children or saw you as unsexual or took advantage of your disability and tried to assault you. Nobody said that your breasts were the only good thing about your fat body. Just a couple of examples.) So imagine how complicated having one’s breasts stared at can get when you’re dealing with multiple oppressions. And on top of all that, imagine constantly factoring the possibility of men staring at your breasts when you’re planning what to wear today, or when you sit down in a low-cut top, or when you’re in a situation in which you want to be taken seriously. You might look at a woman’s breasts for a few seconds. She’s got to put up with the same thing for decades.
I suppose you’re wondering why a lot of women don’t generally speak up. Women are taught to be submissive, subsume our own needs to get others’ met. Yes, even in this day and age. That kind of training lingers on. We’re taught not to rock the boat, because people will think we’re nasty bitches. So we put up with it – maybe he’ll stop soon, maybe he’ll look at my face, how can he do that while he’s talking to me? And it feels awful. To this day, I’ve never told a man to move his eyes to my face, because I’m frozen with shock, after all this time, that someone out there really thinks it’s acceptable to ogle my breasts; also because I do not want to make the situation awkward.
Because when women do speak up about ogling? Sometimes the dude looks embarrassed, apologises and turns away. But often, the situation just gets awkward. So maybe the guy goes away – if he doesn’t snatch a few more seconds to look (oh wow, does he think I can’t see what he’s doing?). But then your friend might say, ‘gee, that was a bit harsh. Him looking wasn’t doing any harm.’ And you’re just that bitch who had to go make things all weird. But this gaze does do harm. You cannot separate the breasts from the person who has them. (I would refer you to Karen Healey’s poem More About Them.)
So, what is a woman to do? There’ll always be some other guy who thinks it’s okay.
Breasts are wonderful things. There’s something more important than that though. At the end of the day, they are a part of a living person. Your respect for the women around you ought to govern your next move.
He, in turn, replied:
[I'm putting the link to Thomas' comment instead, see below. - Chally]
“To this day, I’ve never told a man to move his eyes to my face, because I’m frozen with shock, after all this time, that someone out there really thinks it’s acceptable to ogle my breasts; also because I do not want to make the situation awkward.”
This is so very true. A guy at my work used to look about second button level CONSTANTLY. It made me so very uncomfortable, especially when I’m sitting down at my desk and he’s standing up to talk to me. I never said anything but always wanted to. And what do you say? “Hello, I’m up here”? Awkward.
I really like this post Chally, thanks for writing it.
Thank you for reading, shiny!
Fantastic post, Chally.
Argh, you got trapped in spam again, Thomas! I’m sure you’ve already seen my reply to your comment. It’s not really Internet ettiquette to copy and paste comments to multiple threads because it’s confusing for readers, so I’m going to replace your comment here with a link, okay?
Thanks, Deborah!
I’ve been mulling over why I agree academically with your post, but don’t feel it in my heart. Umm, I mean, I don’t relate to it personally. I need to mull some more, but I think it has to do with my personal set of neuroses and strengths, but I also wonder if it reflects the experiences of other women who might respond to your comments as “Oh, it isn’t a big deal, get over it.”
I’m not agreeing with that response, of course.
I get pissed off when my husband does this to me, never mind anyone else! Though to be honest, other than one particularly memorable “they’ve got to be inflated” remark from a classmate in Yr 7 (who I am still good friends with 25 years later – my memory of that incident is of it being funny) I’ve never really felt that anyone other than Adam was exhibiting an inordinate interest in my boobs.
My experience of feeling absolute raging fury over sometimes being treated as an object first and human being second by my own very dear, very wonderful husband is probably the only difference between my response to this post and Ariane’s and it wasn’t till I read her response that I realised that. How very odd. Makes me wonder if I’m just completely oblivious.
Anyway, it’s a fantastic post Chally and should be required reading for teens, I ought to file it away for the enlightenment of my boys in the future.
“You might look at a woman’s breasts for a few seconds. She’s got to put up with the same thing for decades.”
Too true.
Also, biological imperative? I’ve had a toddler ask to see my breasts. In some non-western cultures they aren’t sexualised at all. You cannot run to science for an excuse to be a jerk.
Ariane: There’s a bunch in there I don’t relate to personally either (as you could probably guess from having met me offline!). I tried to present different experiences I know a lot of women go through, and I mentioned in there that women’s experience is not monolithic, ’cause not everything resonates with everyone, you know? Eg. Lots of feminists object to being called ladies, but I like it (generally). This is just how I feel, and how lots of other women feel, and it ought to be taken into consideration by potential oglers. …by which I mean, thank you for sharing your personal experience, and its being different to mine and that of those other women is cool.
mimbles: what I said to Ariane, I guess! And thank you very much.
Cheers hellonhairylegs!
What Mimbles said, only I wasn’t brave enough to say it until she did…
…’though I should add that I really, really mind, when I feel as though I am the subject of a male gaze from anyone else as well.
Hey, don’t be afraid of sharing your experience, I’m not that scary, yeah? If breast-ogling hasn’t been a significant part of your oppression, then it hasn’t. We don’t all experience life the same way, and we’re not all surrounded by the same population of leering dudes.
I hope you didn’t think I was trying to diminish the significance and validity of your post, I’m just realising that it is giving me insight into some of my history and why my experiences differ from this generically representative one. So you know, as usual, I have gone off on a tangent. Hopefully I can flesh out what I am trying to say in a day or two. :)
No worries, I didn’t think you were. And I’ll look forward to reading what you have to say – it’s always quite different from everyone else whose blog I read.
Thing is, I actually react to a story like this with a sense of recognition of it as a universal experience, I was kind of surprised to realise that my particular version of the experience was so, ummm, specific.
Deborah: You mean the hubby thing? If so, my commiserations, it sort of does your head in doesn’t it?
Yes – the hubby thing. Y’know, I hate it when all I’m doing is crawling out of my clothes and into my warm wincey jim-jams on a cold winter night, and I get ogled at.
Chally, no, it’s not you and Mimbles and the other regulars around here that are scary… it’s having it out there for THE WHOLE WORLD to read that’s the scary part.
I guess I would ask, just to try to balance things for my understanding, is there some feature of a male that some women focus on? Anything, in particular, that some of you women like? My girlfriend, as we were discussing this last night said that she and all of her girlfriends, growing up, used to notice when boys shoulders got broader, and that that was a source of great interest to them. She also mentioned quite liking smiles, and imagining all kinds of sexy scenarios with said smile.
I’ll leave it at that for now, just curious to understand your vantage of men.
Great post! Great points and very very much how I feel about the issue as well. Thank you for writing this. I’ve been having discussions with some “nice” guys who don’t see the harm in treating women like they think women should and/or like to be treated – including being eyed up and I’m going to share this with them. Maybe it will finally get through to them!
Thomas: Not all of us here are into men. Neither are we a monolith. And I appreciate that you’re curious, but you’re missing a key point I made over at your place: it’s the layer of misogyny over the appreciation of breasts that sets breast-ogling apart from anything I could do to male bodies. But you’ve had this explained to you and you already know all this. So I’m thinking that you just don’t want to hear truth or acknowledge where you went wrong.
May: Thank you and I hope I’ve helped!
Here from Hoyden About Town. This post is fantastic! And to Thomas, you’re also missing the element of power that lets men ogle women in a way that women in generally are not allowed to ogle men. If a woman ogles a man like men do to women, she’s seen as promiscuous, very sexually available, and often puts herself in real physical danger. Women learn early to be careful about when we choose not to look away after a few seconds. Look too long, and you’re opening yourself up to a relationship with the lookee in a way that men don’t have to worry about when looking at women.
Thanks very much, Lalaroo (also, great name) (and points).
Pingback: Twitted by womanistmusings
Being a trans woman, I have the added headfuck of 1. Whee I’m passing!! and then 2. Oh shit, what if he realises I’m trans then beats the shit out of me for “deceiving” him into checking me out.
Massive source of anxiety for me.. and I’m a bloody lesbian with a partner, I’m not looking for *any* man’s attention, ever.
Awesome post, Chally.
The PTB have seen fit to grace me with a rack o’ doom, and this bit:
You come to realize: no matter what you wear, or how you behave – all the things we’re told good girls can do to protect themselves – some dude will always think it’s okay.
… rang totally true to me. No matter what I’m wearing, the girls are always right there and by no means inconspicuous, and I’ve had people [men] basically read their size as permission to stare. On the few occasions I’ve thought “to hell with being the nasty killjoy feminist” and said something? Oh, sorry, they didn’t mean to, it’s just they’re so obvious, as though a cup size is equivalent to a sign saying Treat Me Like Your Private Sexualised Freakshow.
Thomas? Regarding the, “surely there’s some boy-part girls like looking at”? I’m not sure if you’re actually serious, and really that oblivious to a culture that constantly treats men-staring-at-boobs as a source of comedy, as a normal part of growing up, as totally understandable and natural and oh it’s hardwired we can’t help it.
But remember, kiddies, it’s nasty feminists who treat men like they’re stupid, irrational beings!
I have rather large breasts, and I tend to deal with this any time I wear anything remotely fitted (and sometimes even when not, when men “use their imaginations”). I hate it. When you are staring at my breasts during a conversation, the message is that that particular part of my body, on its (their?) own, is more important than me as a person. That’s objectification, and that’s where respecting a woman and appreciating her breasts become mutually exclusive.
I used to be very polite, but eventually realised that politeness was not protecting me the way I had been told it should, and will tell men that no, my eyes are not that far down, look up. On one memorable occasion, I had to snap my fingers in front of the guy’s face to get him to look up– and then he felt it was terribly rude of me to do so, yet perfectly fine for him to be so distracted that he didn’t hear me!
And I notice that Thomas is leaving his comments open for a few more answers (until he gets the answer he wants). Which says to me that he was not asking in good faith, but looking for reinforcement of his stance.
Thank you for sharing, Emily (goodness, I sound like one of those group hug circle people on television!).
QoT, thanks, and you’ve given me a new fave phrase with ‘rack o’ doom’.
Sorry you’ve been dealing with all that stuff, Caitlin. Regarding Thomas leaving his comments open, yeah, I think you’re spot on. I’ve been told by a number of people that their comments (taking issue with what he’s said) have yet to be approved. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for the rest of the weekend and assume he’s busy.
It took me a while to twig that there was more to the essay than was written on the page with the comments. And, blimey. I’m astonished that any of you managed to engage with kindness and at length. He’s 100% entitled misogynist douchebag. He reminds me of the men who’ll walk far too close behind you on a deserted pavement, then scream at you for being a suspicious bitch when you cross the road. They glory in not being actual in-the-flesh rapists, and expect you to get naked in return because of their poor little blue balls.
“Men and women both look for signs of a health in all potential mates. ”
Fuck you very much.
Great post Chally (I’m also here via HAT), the part about suddenly being ‘visible’ and the ensuing discomfort rang especially true.
I’ve had my share of oglers over the years, but my ‘favourite’ was the guy at my workplace who informed me, out of the blue, that my breasts were too small! I’m a B-cup and have always been happy with my breasts, but apparently they weren’t adequate for this random guy – and he felt entitled to tell me so.
Thomas I that staring fixedly at a woman’s breasts (especially a woman you don’t know) can remind her of what so many of us are told – that we’re only good for one thing, that that’s all men want from us and that they are entitled to take it.
lauredhel: It took me a minute to realise, also! Thanks.
Tracey: I’m sorry about your experiences. And glad you liked the post.
To the dude in moderation: I don’t accept comments that call women animals. And comments that rely on selective understanding of sentence structure are facetious at best, unless you genuinely misunderstood, which is doubtful in the extreme but possible. And, um, you don’t seem to understand what “intersex” means. If you resubmit a version of your comment in keeping with the comments policy, that engages with the post, I’d be more than happy to smack down your non-argument. Perhaps you should do a little 101 reading before you try again, because I will ban you if you pull that kind of dehumanising shit again.
Thankyou for this Chally. As a woman who’s breasts have changed very much in size over the years, and are, currently, barely visible, its amazing how much one blends into the background when teh boobies are not there too be oogled. Clearly, i cannot contribute any more to society than two rather misshapen deposits of fat. Clearly.
Really fantastic post Chally.
I once told a male friend ‘I’m up here!’ when we were talking. I was 19 then and probably bolder than I am now. He was mortified but he took it well and continued to be my friend. A few years later, with more obvious power imbalances thrown into the mix, I found myself unable to say the same to male colleagues and ‘superiors’.
Thank you both, Nance and Spilt Milk. And thank you for sharing.
Completely agree, especially with the well-trained silence we all have. I’m engaged to a considerate man with excellent self awareness, who will insist that women will dress in a way to encourage the enslavement of men, because us women want them that way. And he is one of the good ones.
Please keep writing.
“If a woman ogles a man like men do to women, she’s seen as promiscuous, very sexually available, and often puts herself in real physical danger. Women learn early to be careful about when we choose not to look away after a few seconds. Look too long, and you’re opening yourself up to a relationship with the lookee in a way that men don’t have to worry about when looking at women.”
Lalaroo is completely spot-on, here. I know I’m not the only woman who’s had the experience of a man, catching you looking at him (even a brief glance, even a slightly longer glance because you’re trying to figure out if you know him or not) and using it as an invitation to ogle you, or come over and try and engage with you. And if you don’t want to engage? If you try to (either politely or not) tell him you’re not interested? You open yourself to the possibility of abuse, at the very least verbally. At the very least insults screamed at your back by him and his friends as you walk briskly down the street, or try to find something to hide behind in the metro station until your train comes.
It gets even worse if you’re in an enclosed space, like a train car, or a coffee shop, or the store you’re working for, and can’t get away.
Or you just stand there and smile and nod, look for an excuse to leave, to not give him your phone number, to get away before he decides that your politeness is further invitation to invasion of your personal space, an invitation to touch.
That’s also my answer to you, Thomas. There is no equivalent, because the power dynamic is too irreconcilably different. And no amount of your “respectful” ogling is going to make any woman feel better, because it’s far too often that we have to deal with the aforementioned situations. We can’t feel safe.
(Thanks so much, Chally, for your own amazing post on this, and giving us all the space to bring up our own experiences. I was also directed here from Hoyden About Town).
Great post Chally, and great to see you blogging again!
As a boobless wonder I never had much to ogle at except when I was breastfeeding, but daughter is much more voluptuous. I must run this post past her and ask her what her experience has been so far (she’s 17.) I haven’t discussed this aspect of breasts with her and maybe should have.
I’ll be sure to, Walls. As long as there’s social justice to be fought for, I’ll be fighting for it. Also, congratulations!
Magnetic Crow: I know exactly what you mean! You are very welcome. If you’ve got more you want to share, even a while down the track, there will always be a space here at Zero at the Bone for you to talk about your experiences.
Helen: Thanks, and it’s great to be back! I hope your daughter hasn’t had to deal with a lot of this.
Alright, had to bring out the “D-bag” call, huh? Fair enough, I may be that. I will try, despite my alleged douchebaggary, to continue the discussion. Granted, my essay is insensative, impolite, and offensive, but I felt it illustrated a point that I hadn’t heard men trying to express, that of those who felt so compulsed, trying to reconcile this compulsion with being respectful (I felt the end of the essay took an obviously satirical turn, and wont try to defend it. The satire, meanwhile, was of men.) I think there are guys out there who respect women and I wanted to express, in full, vulnerable honesty, that this topic is bugging them.
Men are, in the most general terms, assess, as far as my experiences have shown. Again, most general terms here. Even the politest of them, as I’ve noticed, have thrown an illfated comment, here-or there. I suppose I would consider myself somewhere in the middle. There are a lot of asshole out there, agreed and, no doubt, I’ve been one at times. Having said this, I’ve known a lot of good, kind men, and am confident in these lables, and in my judgment in assigning them. It’s been my hope, in so many impolite terms, to address the concerns of some of these fellows.
I tried to address, at greater length, in the comments beneath the essay in question, why my style seemed to leave so many questions open, not as a point of ignoring what some commentors were perfectly adequate answers because they didn’t give me what I wanted, but so that I could start things over, from a simpler standpoint, to try to gain a bit of common ground. Since part of the goal of my essay was to examine one’s persective on reconciling their attraction to physical attributes while also appreciating attributes of that person’s character and humanity, I’ve asked questions trying to understand what it is for other people, to appreciate someone’s physicality.
I think these are fair questions. If, as it has been said, I’m representing the assholes, and you are the victims of other assholes, then I suppose this asshole is trying his damndest to have a courteous discussion by trying to find that common ground in the best way he knows how: Okay, so we’re being disrespectful, and this is just wrong. When you see a person you think is attractive, what features do you notice? What is it like for you to notice them, that experience?
Quick note to Chally: you were correct, the delay of approval of comments on the essay was a matter of being busy. Apologies for anyone who felt ignored. I’m really appreciating all the feedback you all are giving me in continuing the discussion. Here, I have to admit just pure naievty with blogging. As this is my first website, and those my first comments, I was not used to checking bi-daily. This blog stuff is all very new and strange to me.
You got picked up on Reddit; way to be!
I enjoyed the post a great deal and my background in woman’s studies is shady at best so I will presume that there is a set of good answers for my comment already in print, but it might be interesting anyway.
First, a standpoint, I am a heterosexual male humanities grad student in the BigTen. As part of my funding I often teach public speaking.
A recurrent problem that I have (for the sake of speaking–locating the problem is central) in my public speaking classrooms is that female students will occasionally deliver presentations wearing tops that show a lot of their breasts. To be honest, I find it distracting from the presentation (again, so to speak. are the breasts distracting me or am I choosing to find them so? I suspect it’s both. This problem is not helped by the fact that part of my job in grading a speech is to look at and evaluate the non-verbal presentation of the person giving it. Not looking is not an option if I am to do my job adequately.) and I assume that others do as well.
This situation present an interesting pedagogical problem. The common wisdom, and what I am generally told to do about it by my colleagues (male, female, humanities, social sciences, and a number of excellent woman’s studies scholars) is to coach everyone to dress appropriately for their presentations and to tell the women in the class that this includes selecting a top that appropriately conceals their chests. This coaching makes me a bit squeamish, because while I have to coach the men to dress appropriately as well, none of my commentary is directed at any part of their body; no less a sexual(ized) part. This feels unfair and like a capitulation to potentially unwelcome objectification.
The problem I have is pretty classic. The option of coaching the women in the class to cover themselves normalizes the gaze. Although it endows the female students with a degree of agency in the matter, it also burdens them with managing others’ reactions. And, as you explain above, dressing differently may not achieve the desired goal of averting the gaze (this is especially true when almost everyone in the classroom is between the ages of 18 and 23). Another option would be to spend the same time coaching those in the class who might stare on not staring. To be honest, this feels like a losing battle–although that does not mean it is not worth fighting. In addition to convincing the heterosexual men in the classroom change their behavior (many of my female colleagues–both hetero- and homosexual–say that they think that low-cut tops distracting as well and find themselves staring out of some vague fascination; a reaction I assume that many of my female students must have as well) I assume that I also have to coach this reaction out of my female students (who might stare out of judgment. Is that gaze worth considering?). I could ignore the topic, but then I am left in an uncomfortable position when grading these speeches. I ask, “should this distraction impact the grade?” Or worse, the self-reflective “did this distraction impact the grade?”
The only part of your discussion that made me wonder was the assertion that it should not matter what a woman wears. I struggle with this and my predicament seems to speak to it directly. I find myself agreeing. In principle, I think people ought to be free to wear whatever they want (yes, I do mean that statement to be that sweeping–nudists and all) and still be “judged by the content of their character.” However, when one is in a situation in which he or she is being purposely put on display (i.e. public speaking) he or she must be willing to consider the likely reactions of his or her audience to the presentation in order to produce one that is successful (of course, the audience members also have a burden to be a good audience for the speaker). So, although I agree in principle, the unfortunate reality motivates me to teach in a way that probably perpetuates that reality. I guess I am saying that I privilege “does” over “should.” It should not matter, but it does matter. I the end I make the suggestion to dress “appropriately” (cover them up) for the speech and then take some time to talk about appropriate audience behavior. Curiously, I find myself engaged in the enterprise of enlisting my entire class in the project of managing our collective fascination with breasts (all of the time wondering if I am engaging them in the management of my fascination with breasts). Not exactly what I am paid to do in either case.
Hi Everyone,
I found the post rather interesting if not a little too misandric in view.
While I am emphatic with the struggle of women to balance their personal identities in a media dominated with the female physique the article and comments seem to assert an ideological stance that men in general are fixated on breasts. The posit seems to perpetuate men as a class rather than a group of individuals.
Let me outline the phenotypes I have noticed:
* Men are laughable: since they are singularly focused
* Looking down on Men: They are somewhat different from women in this group
* Bypassing Men: you struggle alone but together as women
* Dehumanizing Men: men are beasts driven by their lower bases
* Demonizing Men: that we will follow your breasts through life.
Interestingly these are the types discovered by Nathan and Young in their paper in 2001.
Certainly the issue is a complex problem that seems to stem from numerous sources. I certainly do not want to stem the discussion away from what should be acceptable in society. However, the movement to emasculate men from their sexuality has been tried before and will not work. We find breasts fascinating for so many reasons but most certainly it is cultural and instilled in the images we find everywhere around us. Inherently, most men probably don’t really care all that much. Some do very much.
I am surprised by some of the men in this post / obviously they have a lack of social tact, but their actions do not color all men in one single brush.
I would hope as you discuss the challenge of women in a media age, we consider the effects of women themselves in perpetuating this fascination as well.
Personally, I can not say I do not look – as a man it is probably programmed into me. But I do not constantly stare or be so overbearing as the men portrayed here. If anything, I am more conscious of the fact because of this discussion and will at least consider how I act. But I do not think it oppressive to look at a women and consider her attractiveness. But it may be a type of misogyny I was unaware of. At the very least, I will think more deeply on this.
Thanks for an interesting Post.
Mark, I teach too. I’m not straight. I have girls and hence breasts in my classroom. I too assess their presentations. I am not distracted by breasts, because my job is to focus on what the person is saying and assess that. I can’t help but feel that this problem arises in the first instance because you, like most men, think that breasts *are*, actually, for looking at (even if that’s not conscious).
That said, I kinda feel like you’re creating a vexed issue where there’s not one. Telling people how to dress appropriately doesn’t need to be turned into this ‘focus on the boobies’ kind of thing. If what you’re trying to do is coach people in how to present in professional settings, then surely you’re telling people that suits are probably the way to go, and that they should avoid arseless chaps, holey tshirts, and *any* shirts that aren’t buttoned sufficiently (coz for real, student-types, that tuft of chest hair does not give off the manly vibe you think it does, it just makes me think you only just took off your bling.)
But if what you’re actually doing is coaching students in how to present in a classroom, then, well, I actually think telling women to cover up is intensely problematic. Classrooms, at least as they are run in my locale, are fairly casual settings. And to be honest, you should be able to focus on what someone is saying, rather than their boobs: that’s your job. And if the boys in the class are distracted, well, I personally think it could be good for them to practice listening to what someone is saying, rather than ogling them, especially in a context where it affects their grade. That way, they might discover what they’re losing out on by constantly objectifying the women around them.
And as for the ‘losing battle’ thing, well, first of all, like I’m implying here, the lesson doesn’t need to be explicit. And second of all, isn’t it interesting how going against the status quo is always coded as a ‘losing battle’, up until the privileged actually concede that it shouldn’t have been a battle in the first place, because minorities are people too?
I’ve only been watching this through the sidelines, I just thought I would finally contribute. You see, I actually have a small pair that are how you say, less than perfect. They actually make me feel inadequate at times. My mother on the other hand has 44DDD at last check, and apparently having two large breasts sitting on her person just INVITES men to run up and grope them. I kid you not, she’s told me of men she doesn’t even know just staring. You’d think all she was is a pair of walking breasts. Did I mention we’re both black & have been sexually assaulted at some point in our lives? It kind of adds an extra layer of WRONG.
So when I see people like Thomas I get a little annoyed and anxious. I’m wondering why men feel like they have the right to be this disrespectful towards anyone’s personal space. As has been echoed here and on the original thread a few times (and more eloquently), they’re just breasts. They’re not yours to grab & to hold without permission. Or gaze at or be “distracted by”. That’s not respecting women you know? I just wanted to let that out, it’s been kind of…simmering for a day.
Thomas: What WP said at your place just now. And Tanglethis on humour. Also, I do not think men are generally asses. I have faith in men. Everything else has been addressed.
Mark: Thanks, I was glad to be listed there. I appreciate your intent and I’m glad you’re thinking. I’m with WP on this.
edgeeconomy: You’re welcome. You’re missing a great deal of the point of the post and the discussion, which is that we are not misandrists. In fact, we believe in men and their ability to not objectify women. And the post was not about painting men with the same brush, it was about women’s experiences with particular men. Not all men. You may want to reread it. As for everything else, it has been addressed.
Everyone, those are the last of the comments of this nature I’m letting through (except I’ll consider Thomas’, seeing as this post concerns him particularly). I want to give anyone not yet convinced a taste of what living under patriarchy – kyriarchy! – can do to people.
And you really don’t want to know what I didn’t let through.
Now, this thread is going to continue to be a place in which you can share your stories. I’ll respond to Xands in my next comment.
Personally, I can not say I do not look – as a man it is probably programmed into me. But I do not constantly stare or be so overbearing as the men portrayed here.
edgeeconomy, there’s a few problems here, not least your oscillation between characterising Chally as misandric, and then conceding you might be misogynist… but first up: you have no idea how overbearing you are when you look. That is the whole point here. Just because women don’t always tell you off doesn’t mean you’re not ‘lacking social tact’. You don’t get to decide what is overbearing, or what counts as problematic. As I have said over at Thomas’ blog, I’ve been ogled a lot. I suspect that most of those men thought they were being subtle. The effect was the same. It objectified me and made me feel like I, as a woman with thoughts, desires and needs of her own, were nothing more than T&A, which some man thought he could use for his desires. My sweetie at the moment, on the other hand, if he wants to gaze at me, *asks* if he may look at me. And so when he does, it doesn’t feel like I’m just an object. I feel like he is appreciating me – all of who I am.
Next:
NO ONE is trying to ‘emasculate’ men or pretend they don’t have sexualities. But men often think that when women tell them some sexual behaviour is inappropriate, they’re trying to ‘take away’ their sexuality, by which they seem to mean, their free and clear access to women’s bodies. Which once again falls into the category of assuming that women are objects to which men are entitled.
Interestingly, the responses to these arguments always seem to be ‘but men can’t help it’, which falls pretty firmly into the stereotypes you say Nathan and Young identified: it makes them laughably defined by their inability to counter their ‘programming’, as you put it, it looks down on them for not being able to rise above their allegedly ‘natural’ impulses, it bypasses men by supposing that the issue is really with women who ought to ‘get over it’, it absolutely characterises men as beasts driven by base instincts, and demonises men as so damaged as to be unable to make their own decisions. Who, exactly, was misandric again?
And as for the tired recitation of ‘but women buy women’s magazines! they are oppressing themselves!’, well, I have a website to recommend to you: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/ Take a wander. Have a ponder.
And finally, I’m trying not to be mean about this, but you are not looking for the terms ‘phenotype’ and ‘emphatic’.
Much love and thoughts for you, Xands. :/
And smiles and admiration for WP. :)
Seconding the admiration for WP.
I just wanted to throw something else at Mark (and others with similar struggles) – how does your inability to remain unperturbed by glimpses of exposed breast play out when said breast is being used to feed a baby? How do you feel about mothers using their breasts in public in this way? How about if a mother did so at work, or at a job interview? How would this fit with your notion of what is ‘appropriate attire’? If a woman was breastfeeding during a discussion in class would you be unable to concentrate on what she is saying to the extent that you could not fairly grade her level of knowledge and eloquence? Or does performing the act of breastfeeding so totally change the meaning of a breast that it is no longer an object which somehow insists that you engage with it sexually?
Maternity has certainly complicated the breasted experience for me!
Now that I am no longer a breastfeeding mother, I don’t need to negotiate the public exposure. But lactation and weight gain have meant I’m saddled with a much larger bust (and I was already a DD). Now I have the almost daily dilemma of what to wear – not matronly enough and I’m guaranteed to show a lot of cleavage because when you’re this cup size it’s inevitable. And is that okay, for a mum at the park, bending over in front of other women’s husbands? Is it? And why do I still feel responsible for being ogled to the extent that it changes how I dress, particularly now that I have a specific role to perform – mother – which traditionally is not allowed to intersect happily with sexuality?
Pingback: Twitted by TheFeminista
Pingback: Twitted by mamaVH
I commented on Thomas’ blog here: http://modernsophist.com/?p=48&cpage=1#comment-52 (comment still pending moderation last I checked) so really, all I can add is that I have personally experienced the shift in socialization and experiences that reveal that no, men do not need to stare.
I’m an MtF transsexual and I was socialized as a guy would be during my youth. I had male privilege back then and as such did the staring thing. Post transition I lost male privilege (and gained some painfully guilt inducing perspective about how I acted with it) and was exposed to many of the same experiences other women have in this topic.
And you know what that perspective did? It made it so that I stopped staring. I still have a roaring good sex drive. I’m still attracted to entirely women. I enjoy my partner’s body (with consent).
But I do not stare at other women’s breasts anymore. So, knowing that the only things that changed here was a gaining of perspective, the loss of male privilege and an appreciation for how much it sucks to get stared at, I think I can safely conclude that no, it is not required. No, you do not need to stare at breasts due to your sexuality. And no, it is not acceptable.
You want to look at breasts? Ask permission first and if she says no? Back off and don’t look. That would be respectful. That would be treating women like people. It isn’t hard. It really truly isn’t hard to control yourself. You just have to actually do it.
Sorry about the ugliness of that link. Does wordpress support hyperlink html in comments, for future reference?
I just wanted to thank you for this post. I think a lot of men should be made aware of how it makes women feel when they stare at their breasts, and that they really don’t have a right to do that. And I am no exception there. This is definitely something I will think about the next time I catch myself looking at a women’s chest.
Thanks for commenting, R.P. Yeah, WordPress does support HTML in comments, but you don’t need to apologise!
I’m glad to hear it, davrieb. :)
Pingback: Twitted by rosiered23
Thanks, Chally, for keeping things open for me. I appreciate that, despite the natural frustrations that come from people sharing thoughts and ideas, and trying to learn, you’ve shown quite a lot of respect for me in my drive to express some ideas and participate in this discussion as genuinley as I can. I hope you wont mind if I put a few of my two-cents in on other discussions. As for this thread, my offer still stands for an inveitable toast to a discussion well had. I suppose I ought to thank you also, assuming that many of the moderated, unposted comments were addressed to me, for keeping the comments as productive as they all are.
As to the general matter, and I hope this satisfies as the beginning of a conclusion to the discussion here (per Chally’s intents), I have really appreciated all of the opinions shared here. I have read many intelligent, and persuasive perspectives, and have found myself, in short time, being very conscious of how, exactly, I am viewing women (both in the literal sense and in how I am considering their rights to freedom from objectification).
I still have a lot of questions and ideas. Marks perspective was intriguing to me. I think I can understand his situation, as described, and I believe his perspective of a man trying to do the right thing, while being torn between what the right thing is, and what his own biases are, is exactly the sort of subject I hope to eventually have the wisdom to address on my own. And, try as I may, I suspect I’ll offend a few, and bother a few more, and I suspect we may end up, all trying to figure each other out.
Thanks again, Chally, and if anyone else is just dying to call me an asshole, and you’re tired of all the moderating, feel free to send them my way: I’d like to think my writing demonstrates some real humanity, and maybe a few of them just might relate to one idea or another.
There’s no need to thank me for not posting comments directed at you as there weren’t any. Everything I’ve deleted so far has been directed at me and commenters. Yes, I agree that Mark is trying hard to do the right thing, and I’m glad WP drew his attention to a perspective that might help him out with that. I’m glad you’re thinking and learning and examining. That’s that then, I suppose! :)
All right, folks. I’m closing comments on this post. At this stage there are a lot of privileged and/or nasty comments coming into the mod queue. If you were someone who wanted to tell their story of being ogled, and you didn’t get to leave a comment in time, I will publish it for you if you contact me. It’s no trouble at all.
Remember, you don’t have to back down or apologise for standing up for your rights.
Pingback: links for 2009-08-11 « Embololalia
Pingback: Interesting posts, week of 8/8/09 « Feminists with Female Sexual Dysfunction
Pingback: context is fluid and it’s everything « a shiny new coin
Pingback: 24-Aug-2009 | MohanArun.com
Pingback: Emptying my Bookmarks Menu « WhyI’mbitter’s Weblog